BUCHANAN AND PRESS
MSNBC, MAY 8, 2003

Transcript by American Border Patrol

Buchanan: Should the United States government be held responsible for the deaths of illegal aliens trying to cross over into the United States? Folks According to a lawsuit that was filed by family members of fourteen Mexicans who died, the answer is yes, the Americans should be held responsible. They claim U.S. policy forced thousands to enter through a treacherous stretch of desert that was devoid of water. Do they have a case?

Our guests are Glenn Spencer of the American Border Patrol who is out in Arizona, Glenn, thanks for coming on.

Spencer: Sure, Pat.

Buchanan: And the reverend Robin Hoover, the president of Humane Borders. Reverend Hoover, I know you go into the desert and you offer water to these poor folks who are caught out there and you provided stands out there where they can get water, but isn't it a little absurd to say that the United States government is responsible for illegal aliens who have been brought by Coyotes through the desert and who have been left by those so-called Coyotes out there 'till they died. I mean those people are breaking our laws, they are breaking into our country, and you're blaming the government of the United States and saying we've got to pay?

Hoover: First of all, Pat, you have to understand that I'm not blaming the government and saying that they have to pay, we're not a litigant in this case. We are the ones who made application to put the water there. They denied it. Uhhh, a month later they started picking up dead bodies, and I want to point out that the United States government, through the Border Patrol, through the special training of BORSTAR agents, BORSTAR search trauma and rescue, Border Patrol rescue towers, uhhh and a number of other means are being employed, including permission to place water stations on every federal property in the West desert out here, so Uncle Sam is spending a lot of money right now trying to reduce the number of deaths out there.

Bill Press: Glenn Spencer, let me ask you, and I'm not a lawyer and I'm not going to try to argue the merits of the case, but more the morality of it, you know, at that time, in Cabressa Prieta desert area, the federal government would not allow reverend Hoover to put those water drums out there, wouldn't you, you'd have to admit, that had the water been there, those fourteen people might very well have survived.

Spencer: It was a tragedy to lose those lives, it is also a tragedy that the Mexican government would be backing an effort to use that loss of lives as a political football. It could be argued - first of all the case has no merit and it will be thrown out on a motion to dismiss - but I think the lawyers might consider suing Mr. Hoover because he is the one who failed to have the water there. If he had deep pockets, you can be sure that he would be the defendant in this case. The point is, Mr. Hoover's water stations are part of a network of human trafficking which is now more profitable than drug trafficking. And these people rely on the use of those water stations - which are right next to highways - they know where they are. Mr. Hoover's water stations are part of a network of massive illegal immigration and he is in large part responsible for those deaths.

Buchanan: Reverend Hoover, do you want to respond?

Hoover: No, I don't think so. The very first stations we put out there carried with them a requirement from the Department of the Interior that we actually have a public information program in Mexico detailing the exact location with maps to would be crossers so that they would know where to cross into the United States so they could protect the natural resources at Organ Pipe National Monument and steer migrants away from wilderness areas that needed to be protected. We do not stand in the way of law enforcement and what they're doing. In fact, it helps law enforcement because it gives them more time to find and apprehend these migrants alive.

Buchanan: Reverend, let me interrupt you just to say this. But doesn't Mr. Spencer have a point. The very fact that you are advertising -- we've got water stations out here, their right here, right here, right here -- doesn't that encourage men to go into that desert from which a lot of them never return.

Hoover: I don't think so. After two years, Pat, of empirical evidence of plotting all of the deaths, and where the migrants go and where our water stations are, the empirical evidence says, a, the migrants to not die where our water stations are, and, generally, the decision as to where to cross on the border is made by the coyote, and that's not a function of where the water is, it's a function of where the Border Patrol infrastructure and current deployments are located. So the idea that our water stations attracted...

Spencer: May I just say this.

Press: Go ahead, Glenn, sure.

Spencer: We've come up with a solution to this. American Border Patrol has been working on the border for years. Recently we flew a UAV, unmanned aerial vehicle, just along the border and took pictures of people walking along one of these popular paths we sent you that picture, if you'd like to see it I can show it to you. We also have developed a system of sensors, and we're going to be deploying these sensors all along the border in the very near future, using private funds. These sensors signal (interrupted)

Hoover: You're not going to be deploying them across the West desert because that is federal property and that is Indian property and you're not going to be allowed in there.

Spencer: Oh yes we are. We are going to deploy them and we are going to be sending UAVs to tell the Border Patrol where these people are.

Press: Glenn, all this high-tech stuff is great but its not doing anything about these people on the ground who are dying of thirst. What is your solution, just to let them die?

Spencer: (Shaking his head no) It will tell you each and every time someone crosses the border where they are and how many there are. Why can't we tell the people that? Why can't we tell the Border Patrol that? We have the technology to do it. Why can't we do it?

Press: Are you opposed to - even the Border Patrol now let's reverend Hoover go out there and put these jugs of water out there, these barrels of water out there. Are you opposed to that?

Spencer: The Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation won't let his barrels of water on their reservation. They say they it does no good. And, of course, the reverend has called the Indians up there immoral. I don't think they're immoral, I think they're right.

Buchanan: All right, let me ask you this, reverend Hoover. What about - if they're barrels of water out there and they're flagged, having something, if you will, like a mouse-trap, where folks could go in there, be sheltered, they could get water, but they couldn't get back out, and the Border Patrol could come pick them up, give them a sandwich, finger print them and send 'em back - they wouldn't die, they would get water, and they wouldn't break in. Would you support something like that?

Hoover: Absolutely. I have said I will stand with the Border Patrol anytime employing any technology possible to get people out of the desert. It is why the Border Patrol Agents don't sit on a particular station and watch it if their presence would ultimately be detected and be able to prevent migrants...

Spencer: Well, may I say this

Hoover: So the migrants wouldn't come up and get their water. What they do instead is that they monitor the area further north (Spencer shakes his head) with seismic detectors and

Buchanan: OK, Glenn

Press: Glenn, I know you want to come in with the last word. Let me just ask you, have you ever heard of the phrase compassionate conservative? Would a compassionate conservative put the water out t here?

Spencer: We're the compassionate ones. We have a technical solution to this which is going to be implemented. And what the reverend just said is that the Border Patrol would oppose us for putting sensors and detectors in there that would allow them to find these people, but then support a network that allows this kind of human trafficking to go on which brings in four billion dollars a year. Who is right in this instance?

Buchanan: Ok, gentlemen, we're going to have to leave it right there, but thank you very much.

|  | | |