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Partial Transcript
LOU DOBBS TONIGHTBremer Admits U.S. Made Mistakes in Iraq; White House Tells Congress to Abandon Tough Measures Against Illegal Aliens
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Aired October 5, 2004 - 18:00 ET [Jump to Segment II]
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Segment I
DOBBS: Still ahead, the White House wants tough new rules on illegal aliens stripped from the new intelligence reform bill. Critics say that would jeopardize our national security. Three leading members of Congress are my guests tonight.
And ahead, Vice President Cheney, Senator Edwards will square off in their one and only vice presidential presentation tonight in Cleveland. The senior adviser to the Kerry-Edwards campaign, Joe Lockhart, communications director for the Bush-Cheney campaign, Nicolle Devenish, are among my guests.
And outsourcing your privacy, this time to Africa. Your most personal information being exported to cheap foreign labor markets along with jobs. Ten thousand miles away? No problem. Your job at risk. Your privacy abandoned. We'll have a special report.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The White House is demanding that the House Republican leadership strip the intelligence reform bill of tough new restrictions on illegal aliens and border security.
Republican Congressman Roy Blunt is the majority whip. He is the second most powerful Republican in the House of Representatives and says the immigration reforms will remain in the legislation, despite what the White House is demanding.
And joining us tonight, Congresswoman Jane Harman, the ranking Democrat on the Intelligence Committee who calls the immigration reforms, in her judgment, extraneous.
We thank you both for being with us. Before we begin, let me show you, point out to you, as you well know, and to our viewers who may not be as familiar the provisions that we're discussing here tonight in the intelligence reform legislation.
The first element, of course, is what is the crackdown on driver's licenses on illegal aliens. The White House wants that stripped out, wants to be able to make it easier to deport illegal aliens, those who cross our borders illegally, and to limit the use of foreign consular I.D. cards. That is, such cards as the matricula consular of Mexico, other consular I.D. cards for identification within this country.
Again, thank you both for being here.
Let me begin with you, Congressman Blunt. You are prepared to resist the White House on their demands to weaken the border security provisions of the immigration -- of the intelligence reform legislation?
REP. ROY BLUNT (R), MAJORITY WHIP: Well, we think the border security provisions are important provisions. They're the one thing that the 9/11 commission called for that didn't make it in the Senate bill in any way. I think they make total sense. They're absolutely defensible. For every one of those provisions, there is some egregious case in recent years where someone who really has done great damage to our society could have been stopped if these provisions would have been in place and would have been enforced.
We are working with White House to see if they've got some suggested changes that we might add to this legislation to make them more comfortable in a couple areas. But we intend to go forward with these provisions that, again, the 9/11 commission created the basis for in their report.
DOBBS: And against that backdrop, Congresswoman Harman, the 9/11 commission rather straightforward, talking about the importance of border security, maintaining control. You call it extraneous. Why?
REP. JANE HARMAN (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, I'm for stronger border security. That was the recommendation of the 9/11 commission. What I'm not for are poison pills, which are in this House bill. They are not in the 9/11 commission recommendations. They're not in the Senate bill. They're not supported by the White House. They're not supported by the 9/11 commission or the families.
For example, Lou, you've made a big point about outsourcing. This bill -- this House bill -- House leadership bill would outsource torture of terrorists. We're against torture in America, especially after these scandals in prisons in Iraq. That's why the administration strongly opposes them.
Yet that's in this bill, and so are these provisions to ban documents that are used as bank I.D. documents by immigrants, and Roy Blunt supported the use of those documents for banks in a House vote just a couple of months ago.
BLUNT: Lou, I might...
DOBBS: Go ahead, Congressman.
BLUNT: I might also point out, we were with -- we had some of the 9/11 families here this morning, and they were all to a person supportive of these provisions.
In fact, they said that -- the 9/11 families that they couldn't find any individual in the families who oppose these provisions, but they were being told just what my good friend Jane just said, that somehow they're poison pills designed to kill this legislation.
These are in this legislation designed to stop terrorists and terrorism. We -- we think they're totally reasonable, the idea that we would have greater border security. We're not requiring visas from Canada and Mexico, but we are requiring specific documents that have to be approved. And, other than that, you have to have a passport to get in and out of the country.
That's totally appropriate, I think. HARMAN: Well, I'm for counterfeit-proof immigration documents. I think we all are. But these provisions are not that. These are way far to the right. This is the anti-immigrant caucus of the House. Many Republicans don't support this. The Gun Owners of America oppose the provisions on a national driver's license, which is essentially what the House bill would require.
BLUNT: Oh, I think this is not anti-immigrant. In fact, legal immigrants more than any other group want to be sure the law's enforced. They have gone through the process of the law to get here. They want to be protected from people who have come into the country without going through that same legal process. That's all really these are designed to do, and, Lou, you know how important that is.
HARMAN: Well, my recommendation to this Congress is to fully fund Homeland Security. That has a strong border protection piece in it. We passed the law a couple years ago. It's basically an unfunded mandate with respect to our borders.
DOBBS: Congressman Harman, I have to ask you being from California, a large population in California of illegal immigrants, does that take any -- is that forming any basis for your position on this?
HARMAN: Well, I'm the daughter of immigrants. I...
DOBBS: No, I wasn't talking about talking about immigrants. I wasn't talking about immigrants. You know, look, this is a nation of immigrants. I'm talking about illegal aliens.
HARMAN: Ah. Well, yes, these provision -- it may be the basis for the House Republican leaderships' view. This issue of what to do about driver's licenses is a very hot issue in California. Governor Schwarzenegger just vetoed a bill to allow undocumented immigrants to have driver's licenses.
He said it wasn't -- the bill wasn't secure enough, but two million people are now going to be driving without testing, without credentials and without insurance. So there are tradeoffs here that we have to thoroughly and carefully consider.
BLUNT: Does that mean two million people are illegal in California?
HARMAN: That seems to be the estimate, which is a big problem. We need to enforce our immigration laws fairly, but catching terrorists should be our focus, and I sadly think these House provisions aren't about that.
BLUNT: Well, one way to secure the border is proper documents. That's the basis for...
HARMAN: I agree with that.
BLUNT: ... what we're talking about.
HARMAN: Roy and I agree on that.
DOBBS: Yes. With -- on the basis of that agreement, Congressman Blunt, as one of the most powerful people on Capitol Hill in the Republican leadership, are you prepared to resist the White House and maintain the provisions of your legislation as you move for a vote, and should it succeed in conference committee with the Senate legislation?
BLUNT: Well, I'm not sure many days how powerful I am. Some days as a whip in the House, I feel not all that powerful. But we're prepared to pursue what we've got in this bill.
We're certainly talking to the White House, particularly on the provisions that Jane referred to on torture. We don't support torture. We also don't support the idea that people who are known criminals will just be allowed to wander around in this country as the only option.
DOBBS: Well, Congressman, we know how powerful you are, and I assure you, out of respect to that powerful position of yours, we thought that the Congresswoman Harman, powerful in her own respect, would be appropriate with the strength she brings to each issue.
HARMAN: Thank you.
DOBBS: We thank you both for being here.
HARMAN: Thank you. And Susan Collins is powerful in Senate. She's doing a great job!
DOBBS: Well, we'll see how powerful everybody is as we start to rationalize public policy in this country.
Thank you both.
HARMAN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo of Colorado is the chairman of the Immigration Reform Caucus who says stripping the immigration reforms in the intelligence overall will jeopardize national security. Congressman Tom Tancredo will be joining us here tonight shortly.
It brings us to the subject of our poll question tonight: Do you believe homeland security is possible without control over our borders? Yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou, and, as always, we'll have the results for you later here in the broadcast.
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ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Congressman Tom Tancredo, Republican of Colorado, says he is outraged by the White House demands to strip immigration reforms from the intelligence reform legislation. Congressman Tancredo says very simply that anyone who votes against the new limitations on illegal immigration jeopardizes our national security.
Congressman Tancredo joins me tonight from Capitol Hill.
Good to have you here, Congressman.
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: Likewise.
DOBBS: You have just heard Congressman Blunt, the majority whip, and Congresswoman Harman, basically with two different views, but you heard Congressman Blunt representing the leadership, take -- to me at least -- a surprising view that they're going to defy the White House and move forward with these strict provisions on -- at least stricter provisions on immigration within the intelligence reform bill. Are you surprised?
TANCREDO: Oh, yes! This is wonderful news. The extent to which the leadership in the House has gone out on a limb on this one is amazing. I mean, Lou, we have -- how many years have we been pushing this issue without an awful lot of support from that environment? And, all of a sudden, things are starting to fall into line. I don't know why, but I'm awfully happy.
DOBBS: The idea that there would be any debate over enforcement of border security...
TANCREDO: Oh, yes.
DOBBS: The "TIME" magazine report, now four week ago, its cover story, three million illegal aliens entering this country this year...
TANCREDO: Every year. That's right.
DOBBS: ... at a time we are supposed to be maintaining port and border security? It is -- it's inconceivable, frankly, to any rational person that there would not have to be some adjustment on immigration policy, and I'm saying that as an understatement. What do you think is going to happen to this legislation?
TANCREDO: Well, I think we're going to pass it in the House. Whether -- I mean, the Senate has got to be our focal point here. We really have to ask people to contact their senators because, I guarantee you, that's where it's going to come to a clash.
When we get into the conference committee, that's where I fear these things may be taken out. I hope they're not just being put in on the House side for the political advantage we may gain by having Democrats vote against it, but then take it all out in the conference committee. That's another little strategy that they might employ.
DOBBS: You heard Congresswoman Harman, you know, who is a highly respected member, say basically -- and I think I am not misconstruing in any way -- that there is a certain influence because so many of her constituents in her state of California are illegal aliens.
How much of this do you think will be a similar influence for other congressmen and women in their districts?
TANCREDO: It will be significant. Last night, we had a conference, a Republican conference, and we debated this issue, and it got pretty heated at a couple of points in time.
Other members, even of the Republican conference, are concerned about the way this may be portrayed and how we may be -- you know, how the Republicans may be spotlighted for the kind of attack ads that might occur, and I keep saying, look, we're talking about national security here.
Anybody has got to think about how it would look to the rest of the world. What about the rest of the Americans out there, the 75 percent of America who are saying defend our borders, do something about the national security? Are we just going to ignore them in order to satisfy these pressure groups? Well, this is going to be the debate that we will...
DOBBS: It's interesting to me, Congressman, the pressure groups that are being formed. You heard Congresswoman Harman, again, a member whom I personally respect, talk about this as anti-immigrant legislation. To be clear, it's not immigrant, it's illegal alien.
TANCREDO: And I think Roy Blunt was good in his response when he said...
DOBBS: That's what I was going to say. Absolutely.
TANCREDO: ...in his response he said, "Look, if you are here legally, you are just concerned about your safety and the safety of this nation than anyone else." They're on our side. It's this bizarre sort of commitment we have to the idea that if we say anything at all in opposition to immigration control, we end up being the bad guys.
DOBBS: Yeah, bad guys.
TANCREDO: Not true.
DOBBS: In the country that is the most racially, ethnic in terms of religion, the most diverse society in the face of the earth. It's astounding.
TANCREDO: It is amazing.
DOBBS: Our audience, just so you know Congressman Tancredo is demonstrated every night in the way they are reacting in the broadcast. Their e-mails, letters, and so forth, that there is a powerful consciousness about this issue now. And we as always appreciate you being here and especially one of those that have been work so diligently to raise that consciousness.
TANCREDO: Tell your folks, go after the Senate. Go after the Senate, Lou.
DOBBS: You tell them! You tell them, Congressman.
TANCREDO: Go after the Senate. That's the place. If you want to vent your anger and you want to get rid of your frustration, go after the Senate and tell them to hang in there with our bill.
DOBBS: Or slap a wall or something.
Congressman Tom Tancredo, thank you very much for being here.
TANCREDO: It's a pleasure, Lou. DOBBS: As we have reported extensively here, the presidential candidates are saying little about immigration reform in this campaign. But national security is expected to be a major issue in tonight's one and only vice presidential presentation. Joining me now for more of what we can all expect to hear on security, the economy and other issues are officials from both campaigns. I'm going to be talking with them separately. In a moment, I'll be talking with senior adviser to the Kerry-Edwards campaign, Joe Lockhart. But first my guest is Nicolle Devenish, she is the communication's director for the Bush-Cheney campaign. Good to have you with us, Nicolle.
NICOLLE DEVENISH, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, BUSH CAMPAIGN: Thanks for having me, Lou.
DOBBS: Given the closings of the polls. In one poll the president and the vice president maintain a five-point lead over Senator Kerry and Senator Edwards but in the others, a closing. How important is tonight's debate? How important is the vice president's performance in your judgment?
DEVENISH: Every day between tonight and November 2 is critically important really for both campaigns but the thing you have to remember for tonight is that John Edwards is actually the only person that's ever beaten John Kerry in a debate. So I think what we'll see tonight is the vice president trying to go head-to-head with all -- I am sorry, Lou?
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